So you're probably wondering why anyone would jump ship when things seem to be going well and there are no major user issues.
The change started from a conversation with a friend, I told him I used Ubuntu as my desktop and he said to me that in his opinion Ubuntu was for "stupid people and ex-Windows users".
Well I was really flabbergasted, I thought how rude and unreasonable a thing to say!
It devolved quickly into a bit of an argument.
I told him that Ubuntu just happens to get many ex-Windows users because it is a great desktop, not because it is particularly catering to ex-Windows customers. Redhat on the other hand focuses more on servers and so they get a larger number of corresponding server customers.
To which he responded that actually Ubuntu says it is built for ex-windows users right on the front page of their website "Ubuntu is an open-source alternative to Windows", which it does say, and that Fedora is the one which is actually just trying to be a great desktop and doesn't even mention windows, which it doesn't. This is pretty much where our discussion ended.
Now I'm not trying to say that something written or not written on a website is the main reason I decided to change to Fedora, but it is what started the balls rolling so to speak.
After the conversation I started thinking about things.
So what if Ubuntu's mission is to target ex-Windows users?
If Ubuntu's mission really is to cater to ex-Windows users then it certainly explains their attraction and support of the Mono project, which is an open-source implementation of the .Net development framework.
A troubling example is that Ubuntu has recently announced that it will not be including the Gimp in their base install for Lucid Lynx, and instead will probably go with a mono application named f-spot.
Perhaps this also explains Ubuntu's decision write a close-source application and include it by default in their desktop, I'm talking about Ubuntu-One of course.
This got me in turn thinking about the warnings we've all heard about technology mono-cultures. Some say that Ubuntu is already pushing the 30% mark of installed Linux desktops. And it is positioning itself well for the coming netbook explosion which could in turn lead to a lot more installs. This could eventually lead to a lack of diversity in the Linux desktop market.
<EDIT>
I'd like to just add a few words here to address some of the reaction I'm getting.
First of all, I'm not trying to say that Linux has become a mono-culture due to Ubuntu, I'm simply saying that given what things look like today there are dangers that the Linux Desktop landscape could become overwhelmingly dominated by a single distrobution if the trends we see today continue.
Ask yourself: What will this graph look like in 5 years if the trends we see today continue?
Secondly, my point is not to say Ubuntu is related to Windows, my point is that it seems Ubuntu is specifically targeting ex-Windows users as prospective clients, and that this fact could explain some of its recent behavior.
</EDIT>
So what does that have to do with Fedora?
Well, I'm an old-time Linux enthusiast. I think the first version of Linux I ever tried was from some CD's I found in a magazine back in the mid to late 90's, I think it was version 5 of Redhat.
I can still remember first learning about the ideals of free software and the importance of diversity and choice which gave rise to the creation of Linux and the open-source world as we know it today.
I've got nothing against Ubuntu it is a fine desktop but making a fine desktop isn't what separates us from Windows and Mac, and it never has.
What separates Linux are those old-school ideals of openness, diversity, and choice. These are area's where I think Redhat has held firm over the years and is continuing to do so today.
Maybe its my imagination but it seems that perhaps certain people have forgotten how we got here, and are getting a bit to wrapped up with doing all they can to sell their product, perhaps thinking that because it is Linux based the ends will justify the means. If that's the case, then I wouldn't feel comfortable using their products.
And so in conclusion, I still believe in the ideals of Linux, and I'm putting on my Fedora and heading to less crowded country.
14 replies:
I don't agree. Ubuntu doesn't steer Linux in a monoculture. Further I don't understand why the distro of the biggest Linux company in the world better support the ideals of Linux.
rg
Marco
F-Spot is already in the default Ubuntu install and has been for a few releases. The space recovered by not shipping The GIMP by default is instead going to PiTiVi, a simple video editor, which is written in Python, not Mono.
Also the bits of Ubuntu One that are in Ubuntu itself are open source, it's the server end that's closed. Depending on your perspective that's either nit-picking, or just fine because it's just like using Google or Gtalk or other closed source services on the Internet.
That aside, enjoy Fedora, it's a fine OS :)
@rockiger I agree I dont think Ubuntu is intentionally steering Linux towards a mono-culture but by dominating the linux desktop market that is what could eventually happen, I'm talking about the distant future if the trends continue as they are today.
@cmsj F-Spot is also installed by default in Fedora, I just meant to highlight that F-Spot would be considered the replacement for Gimp.
As far as only the server end of Ubuntu-One being closed-source you are nitpicking, if someone doesn't really care about open-source then of course its not a big deal for them whether the back-end is closed or not.
But the ideals upon which Linux is founded are open-source ideals and Linux distribution makers should care about those ideals and should be sterling examples of eating their own dog-food, thats my opinion anyway.
But thanks for the comment.
I've been tempted to switch from Fedora 9 to Ubuntu but since then, Fedora did catch up a lot and now it doesn't seen that far behind. Since I'm very familiar with RedHat-style Linuxes, I've decided to remain on Fedora.
Also, I don't see any openness problem with pushing Mono. On the contrary, they are some interesting ideas with Mono that are worth trying.
Dude you won't let me paste a citing from your own work because your own comment system is framed and retarded? drop the paranoid unrealistic lazy anti-spam bureaucracy from your "framework" and maybe allow some user experience and convenience through.
Your rhetoric of ideals about openness, diversity and choice is typical with people my age, the kind of people who are familiar with linux distrubutions from as early as slackware.
I appreciate your ability to "change" blindly from one distribution to another. It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things, i hear the "why not?" side and the pleasent surprise.
My concern is that I don't think you are necessarily a "thinking person", you are probably a democrat, and most likely support an idea of Utopia. This is simply not the kind of quality becoming of a remarkable engineer, or selfless industry leader. It is a dillusion, and so I rant....
The whole point is "how have you changed the world and do you have the necessary tools to accomplish this on a regular basis?"
I applaud your "switch" and ability to randomly re-evaluate your tools, however, you decision to have done this was motivated by EGO as opposed to LOGIC.
Let me tell u this very frankly. I have been using linux for the past four years. I have worked on a number of distros including Red Hat, Fedora, Slackware, Open Suse, Arch and Ubuntu. After all that what really matters to me is not the distro but the core kernel and the applications I use,
Currently I am on Ubuntu (Package manager and community) is the major reason for it. Whenever I install Ubuntu I don't go for a default (I mean the Gnome desktop) installation. Instead I install the os with no gui and then work my way up according to the applications I use.
But one thing that matters is the Philosophy of Ubuntu which is quite different from the others. Moreover I have myself seen Ubuntu distros to be running more stable on many desktops than Fedora.
So finally what I would like to say is use whatever makes your boat float and don't just change distros, it hardly matters (in my opinion) moreover takes a sufficient amount of time in learning abt the new distros. This is from personal experience
I think you just mixed the events. There is no relation between FSpot and The Gimp removal than the single missing 10 usages that people use for Gimp were added to an application that is default on the Ubuntu Install. Is like you would remove the LD linker and you add the missing bits to the GoLD linker to be a good replacement. For sure any change will have detractors (like using GoLD linker will say that people decide it politically instead to contribute to regular LD, etc.)
The Gimp removal was for usability cases not for politics and also because saved the CD space. "Embracing Mono" was not taken in this specific case.
I've was one of the proponent of using Banshee instead Rhythmbox because the former have been evolving on a better peace than the latter for some years. Also it just happen that Banshee can play video too, so I thought that was a better candidate for an user that wants a media manager. It happens that Banshee is not yet picked as default as they decide that are some usability problems. The reasons were reasonable an not about runtime. I remember a lot of persons that say: we don't need Mono, we already have Java, but they do not end finishing a polished program that users will use at the end. Regardless is a sticky note program, a search over the desktop engine, a quick launcher, a music library player. (see here: http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/153/ )
My hope just gets that to not spread opinions when we don't give back reasons other than political. If you don't like the Ubuntu target, I think is OK, I use Fedora too but for me the first real thing I do is to find how to install Banshee, but I don't say in blogs, because I really appreciate what Rhytmbox contributes for Linux' Desktop: it brings for Gnome a clean music management solution. Are today other better?
This is why Go is also important as language: they bring value with dynamic features, gorutines and GC on Linux. May not be the solution for everyone, but who will like them, will use them, but without getting too personal for who don't.
Ummm, and you didn't respond to your irate friend's "stupid people" comment? Perhaps it shouldn't have been mentioned since it is barely addressed. And yes, Ubuntu is geared toward ex-Windows users, and it is also geared towards the not so technically inclined. I know some liberal arts majors and the like installing Ubuntu since it's so easy and they want to try something different and learn from it. I find it a rather insulting thing to write without addressing.
and in any case, if you want to stay true to the path of openness, then Ubuntu is obviously not the right choice, and by transitive property, then this isn't at the heart of Linux either. Non-free packages are in Ubuntu and as we can see, they're heading into the closed-source direction. It's not their policy to avoid using non-free or closed software. Hell, we're all hackers, we can just take out the packages we don't like and replace them with open ones, but for true openness, GNU-Linux is the way to go.
@Rohit, I understand your comment about the philosophy of Ubuntu being a good ideal, but it is easy to claim to have ideals. By distributing a Linux based operating system they are by default also claiming to support the ideals of free software and lately it seems they have been moving away from that direction. But like I said, I have nothing against Ubuntu as a desktop it is a fine desktop, but I also think Redhat makes a fine product as well, and I think Redhat has been staying truer to the principles which got us to where we are today and that counts for something.
@ciplogic I appreciate what your saying. If banshee and f-spot are fine for your needs then by all means use them. Maybe this is just my opinion but I really don't think a rational person can honestly say that f-spot is a valid replacement for Gimp. However it is clear that the f-spot developers are trying to position it as just that, it is not an accident that they are doing so, since it gives f-spot a very secure position in the desktop landscape and mono along with it.
I dont hate mono, but in my opinion we shouldn't have it in the base install, not unless Microsoft decides to completely open-source .Net the same way that Sun open-sourced Java. If Microsoft ever does go down in flames one day, I guarantee that they will try to take everyone else down with them and it is likely that at that time they switch their business model from making software to suing for patent infringements.
@nOObster Nobody who uses Linux is stupid, sorry I didn't address that comment, but I thought it wasn't worth addressing.
@Alex Combas
F-Spot is not a replacement for GIMP, but for users may become one. I use The Gimp and I honestly don't know how to draw a line. A black line and pressing shift to align to horizontal or to vertical profile. (may be possible, but may be much harder than let's say MS Paint).
The features that most users (that are not programmers as me and you) use for eye correction, lightness/contrast and other small issues.
To make a similar example: a basic GEdit with no plugins installed cannot replace Eclipse by no means (I hope this is your default IDE to have a good measurement in our talk), but GEdit with syntax highlighting, tools plugin (to use shortcuts to launch external tools) and logic to make cursor to follow more the IDE logic, will mitigate most users that will use this editor for fix a line of code.
In the same way Mono in itself I don't see it as bad as is just a runtime. I contribute to an Windows/.NET free/opensource project and I don't see problems that I use .NET. The reason I don't support other things than Windows are resources (mostly time) but I found for a project that gets bigger than 30.000 lines (and is not e theoretic project) is really too easy to get in areas that are risky with patents. As Wine exists todauu and was not attacked by Microsoft, I'm still considering that will happen at least better or equal with Mono, as Mono implements a specification of .NET VM, and not reverse engineering it (as Wine does).
Being default or not it just depends of what values it bring. Mono in itself bring no value as Python if is installed naked on user's machine. No user will take Python to write scripts or will write CLR (MSIL) code. The value is by applications that enable and by removing duplicate code that comes elsewhere in other applications. I'm not here to put the Mono's case, but Mono in Ubuntu is installed pretty basic (for example, comparatively with .NET, mono do not come with the command line tool gmcs) but enable basic applications of Ubuntu desktop (mostly Tomboy and F-Spot). GNote may be a good replacement for F-Spot (I think as if you will rewrite any Python application in Vala/Glib+C, that will make it a bit more responsive) but in general Python is the same as Mono. A runtime that bring more value to desktop.
Is Mono dangerous for future? I'm not a prophet to say, but as for core Mono (that most Linux/Gnome applications are concerned) as they stop to implement only a specification of ECMA, they are not in the black spot that an dying Microsoft will freeze Mono. What can freeze Mono I think is that Novell to fail in business. But as usages, Mono give the same value as a lot of other high level runtimes that exist but mostly in area of GNOME desktop. Java did it on enterprise and python for tools like installers (or video editor that will be included in 10.04 just because removal of The Gimp brings more space on CD, this time written in Python).
I made some mistakes: GNote is a replacement for Tomboy, not for F-Spot, and some spelling (is late here and that's why I wrote it that bad).
@ciplogic I understand fully that this is your opinion on the matter, but I also have my own opinion, I dont think either of us is going to change our minds on this one.
But I'd just like to mention...
Do you remember when Microsoft suddenly claimed Linux violated 235 of their patents? That was about 2 years ago.
Do you remember when dying SCO-Unix decided to sue everyone in a desperate last ditch cash grab? That was just a couple years ago as well.
Using .Net and developing for Windows is 100% safe, absolutely zero danger of lawsuits.
Developing for Linux with Mono, we dont know how safe that is yet, only time will tell.
Microsoft could change their mind tomorrow about Mono and Linux and launch legal action, and I think it is highly likely that they would win if they did so.
But anyway, we're getting off topic, but thanks for the interesting comments.
Way to go Alex!
@Alex, you shouldn't let your friend convince you that Ubuntu is not the ideal OS. However, from your explanation, that doesn't seem to be the case. It appears you applied logic to your decision and this is something that a very large portion of the computer and internet revolution lack the ability to do.
Should it be acceptable that things just work? Well of course. And the Ubuntu and Fedora communities have come a long way to make this happen.
Something I never really understood about this argument though... what is the difference? I have used both and they are the same in my opinion. Someone made a comment that Fedora has finally caught up with Ubuntu but I am not sure where that is coming from. I don't know my Unbuntu history but my first experience with it was only 3 years ago and at that time it was not quite up to the Fedora standards. As of about Fedora 9, I think Ubuntu finally got to the point of packaging the same versions that Fedora had already been including. But in any case, they both offer the same components and applications. They both are easy to use and support a wide range of hardware. They both include the same kernel versions. It seems to me, the ease of use argument can only be won by Ubuntu in the area of providing questionable or illegal content within its repositories. Making it possible for those ex-Windows users to violate laws without their knowledge. This is why I think Red Hat (please use the name correctly) and the Fedora community deserves the support and admiration. They continue to try to make the right decisions based on usability and legal obligations. They protect their users from legal arbitration by only including legal or licensed components in their distribution. Other distributions don't have to do this because they are packaged in countries that do not protect the rights of others. They simply provide you the bits and give you a disclaimer telling you that if you live in certain counties (like the United States), some components can not be used (playing of commercial DVDs, MP3s, etc) unless you purchase a license from the respective license or patent holders. In Fedora, these same bits are made available through alternative repositories that are trusted by the Fedora community but for a user to get at them, they must install a package which adds the repository to the package manager and the user still receives the same disclaimer that they must purchase a license.
In any event, have you switched back to Ubuntu at this point? What is your current distro? Pros/Cons/Likes/Dislikes?
Larry
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